The media and blogosphere are abuzz in the wake of the suicide of Rutgers college freshman Tyler Clementi after his roommate secretly broadcast his encounter with another man.
This is an extreme and tragic example of cyberbullying and it makes me wonder 1) Do the two students who committed the crime have a history of bullying and if so, when did it begin? 2) What is our role as parents as it pertains to bullying and/or disciplining other people’s children?
My children are still young–ages 4 and 6. These issues are surfacing and I have been torn as to how to react. Does stepping in overstep our bounds when the boundaries are different with each person?
A few weeks ago, my son Bode had his second soccer game. His team played another that looked like they had been playing together from birth. Not only were their skills beyond their age but they were almost a full head taller. Undaunted, Bode’s team members played their little hearts out despite being pushed, shoved and kicked the entire game. One red-headed boy in particular on the opposing team was the instigator for much of it.
Following the game, they had a friendly kick-off so all the kids who had not scored during the game would finally have their chance. They stood in line to wait their turn and at one point I looked up to see Bode crying. And noticed the red-headed boy kicking the crap out of his calves and punching him in the back.
I didn’t think. Instinctively I tore out to the field like a mama bear protecting her young. I yanked Bode away, bent down the kid’s level and very slowly, deliberately said, “You. Do. NOT. Touch. My Son.” His reaction? He sneered at me.
His mother, not seeing his trespasses but witnessing the aftermath raced out to the field as well. “What’s going on?” she asked not accusingly. I informed her, upon which she asked her son to give Bode an apology. After refusing, she took him off the field.
The drama unfolded in less than a minute but its echoes still resonate with me. Was I in the wrong to so deliberately confront her son? Though she reacted quickly, shouldn’t she have forced an apology? Where is the line when disciplining other people’s kids?
I have mulled these questions over in my mind to ascertain my line. Mine is I would never strike or even touch another person’s child. However, if they are causing bodily harm to mine, that is when I step in. There are some parents who react beyond that and some who do not react at all to their bullies musing, “kids will be kids.” The problem with everyone’s “lines” is they are all different.
So, my question to you is where is your line and what is your role when you feel it has been crossed? What have been your experiences?
Photo: Daily Mail
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Side note: Denver mom and author Penny Holguin is so concerned about childrens’ well-being that she wrote an award-winning book about it. Sarah O’Hara ~ Gift of the Fairy Wings ($16.95) is the story of Sarah O’Hara, a little bunny who bullies her classmate, Angela. Sarah’s meanness is overcome by Angela’s persistent kindness.
Penny blogs about kindness and bullying and has kindness activities available for download at her website: www.sarahOhara.com. Be sure to check her out at the following book signings:
10/23 ~ Author Signing at Centennial Medical Center Halloween Trick or Treat, kids can Trick-or-Treat their way through doctor’s offices. Tons of other activities as well! 14200 E Arapahoe Road, Centennial CO (at Jordan) 11 am to 2 pm.
10/30 ~ RALLY FOR SANITY DENVER, Event Speaker, speaking on Kindness and reading “Sarah O’Hara ~ Gift of the Fairy Wings” to the crowd.
11/13 ~ Borders Books & Music, Story Time and Author Signing, from Noon to 3 pm. Mall address: 1 West Flatiron Crossing Drive, Broomfield, CO . Santa Breakfast at the mall earlier in the day.
Author: Amber Johnson
Amber is the founder and editor of Mile High Mamas, travel writer and former columnist for The Denver Post. She is a passionate community builder and loves the outdoors. She has two awesome teens and is happily married to a man obsessed with growing The Great Pumpkin.
Candace
a thought-provoking discussion, indeed. i believe a lot of bullies are borne from how the parents raise their children. in our neighborhood we have some very aggressive boys whom the parents let run wild. i honestly don’t blame the boys and have had numerous discussions with the parents who blow their bullying off as a part of growing up. my role as a parent? you’d better believe when my kids are picked on or hit that i am stepping in. all other bets are off.
Sketchy
Your son learned how to handle a tough situation by your intervention. Sooner or later he will have to confront this sort of attack on his own and you just showed him how to do it.
BringinHometheBacon
It’s a tough situation. Every parent feels the need to protect their child and, for those of us whose kids have been bullied, we hope that they don’t have to defend themselves to the point where their innocence and faith in others is ruined.
What I’ve been amazed at, and still haven’t found resolution with, is that my friendship with other parents can be destroyed simply because we have different views on how to raise our children. They may not view the bullying as that, they think their kids are just learning to have a competitive nature and their aggressiveness will get them ahead in life. I see them as social misfits that aren’t following the same rules in life as the rest of us. Do I ruin my friendship forever with the parents to make my point when nothing will change? Ultimately, we have to set the best example for our kids, teach them the right way to treat people, and hope they’ll see that those types of kids won’t get ahead in life. For us, that means not allowing them to play together or be in a situation where problems arise, which of course my kids don’t understand.
Liz
Bullying as all about control. In my experience, children bully because they have no control at home. They either have no boundaries or have too many boundaries. In our house, we say if someone is bullying you, then you fight back and stick up for yourself. It usually only takes one time for you to stand up to a bully for them to see they have no control over you and they will leave you alone. I know most school programs say don’t fight back and tell someone and walk away but blah blah blah, the bully will come back and probably even worse. If I ever found out my child was being a bully, there would be major consequences. My first born is a natural peacmaker-not a fighter but over time he has learned to have the confidence to stick for himself. It is a lesson he needed to learn on his own but we as his parents gave him the tools he needed. Your example to Bode will stick with him now just teach him to do it for himself. GO MAMA BEAR!
Scatteredmom
I’m with you, Amber. While each situation is different, if a child is beating on mine, I would intervene. I think what you did was perfectly acceptable. In the other case, if a friend of mine was angry at me when her child drove over mine and took off like that, then maybe it’s not a friend I’d want to have.
We dealt with lots of bullies when Jake was little. Oftentimes I was the only adult who would step in. Reacting to protect your child in a firm and no nonsense way shows your child how to stand up for themselves, and the bully child that you won’t just step back and accept that behavior. Honestly, I ended up teaching Jake that if he needed to punch a kid back in self defense, make it a really good one. Once a kid was sitting on his back pounding his face into the snow, and Jake smashed his head back into the kid’s face really hard, giving him a bleeding nose.
The kid never bothered Jake again.
I have to add that forced apologies don’t do any good, in my opinion. Kids only learn to say the right thing to make people happy.
Lauren in GA
It upsets me when people parent over top of me…meaning…I am standing right there and trying to correct a situation and they add their two cents. I like to try and handle it myself. But, in your situtaion, I would have charged the field, too. There is no reason for Bode…or any child…to be physically abused…(actually any kind of abuse is wrong.)
Natalie
Amber- I think you were absolutely in the right to react the way you did. I’ve had to do the same to a boy who was spanking my daughter really hard on the bottom while on the playground. And I found his mom just to give her a heads up so she could get the real story without her son turning me into a villian.
Here’s the thing…being a mom is a tough, tough job sometimes and a lot of times we just don’t give each other enough credit. I’ve met amazing mothers who’s children are just wild. I’m all for two moms standing on the sidelines gently guiding their kids through a non-violent disagreement but if your child is physically harming mine, then I will be stepping in and expecting for you to step
Up as a mom so we can teach our kids how to work it out together.
Andrea
If there’s no parents around, I’m always stepping in, and probably shouldn’t. If there is any harm to anyone, then I for sure would be taking action. I think you did the right thing.
I find it hard with family too. In some instances I’m ok with others telling my kids what to do and in others I’m not. It’s so dependent on the situation and how they go about it.
Amber Johnson
Great comments, everyone. So, the question is what do you do when the other parent doesn’t step in at all and completely ignores the situation? I’ve had that happen, too.
Julie @ The Mom Slant
Amber, I wrote a post on my personal site about Oliver getting bitten in the baby pool by a little girl whose mother wasn’t even present. I got the pool management involved, and even so, she thought I was overreacting – both to the bite and to the fact that her daughter was unsupervised (a lifeguard is no substitute for a parent). Some people just don’t get it.
I’m really sorry this happened to Bode. In fact, I’m horrified – both by the kid’s behavior and by the fact that neither of the coaches, nor the refs, intervened.
JamericanSpice
I would have done the very same thing you did with regards to your son. I remember a few months back, two boys were playing with my son, my son was four at the time, he looks much older. The boys came up and it seemed they were playing with him, but I could see they were jeering him and at one point, they threw ball in his face, when he thought they wanted to play catch with him. It wasn’t just throwing a ball and it accidentally hit him in the face. They boy aimed for his face and then laughed when my son started to cry.
These boys were about 7 or so.
In seconds I was all over them. I took the ball from his (the boy had ran to pick it up, maybe hoping to hit my son again) hand and I asked him if he realized that my son is crying from what he did. I told him that was not nice and he should get on to finding his parents or I’d twist him like a pretzel.
I was really angry but I did not touch these kids. But i was there to defend my baby.
Now I want to teach my child to defend himself and not just turn the other cheek so they don’t get in trouble at school. I want my son to understand that it is alright to defend himself.
I wish more parents would get involved and know what their children are doing and are capable of.
Holly at Tropic of Mom
I’m sorry that happened to Bode! Poor guy. I think you handled the situation well.
Holly
Wow, I would of been SO mad if someone’s kid was beating mine up and the parents didn’t say anything.
We talk about this a lot in my moms club. I step in too much. I know it and am trying not too. But it’s me disciplining my own kid. Sooo, here is where I stand. I’m totally fine with other parents verbally disciplining my child if I am not there or happen to not see it. Kids are WAY smart and manage to get away with something the only second you turned away. I want to know if my child is not being polite. I step if if I another parent asks for me to watch their kiddo and to verbally discipline if they can not. I will step in without being asked if something was physical or about to hurt someone else.
Story: Bear Creek Park,kids were throwing water at a bunch of bees to make them mad and fly around. (?!) One guy near us was clearly getting upset and mentioned he is deathly allergic to bees. A second later my friend firmly told the kids to stop what they were doing. The kids looked super embarrassed and all of them stopped. If I was one of their parents, I would of been embarrassed and apologized not for my kids behavior but for the lack of discipline on my part resulting in my kids’ behavior.
Another note: If a parent was upset I verbally disciplined their kid and I did it because someone was about to be hurt, I could care less how they felt, wouldn’t be a person I respected too much anyway.
Lucretia
Great conversation here. Sadly, bullying is always a “current event” in our world. But I am happy to see it’s being talked about more widely just at the moment.
I am probably on one of the extremes as it were. Far from ‘doing nothing’ – if my child is involved (on either side of the equation) I will be stepping into the fray. When I accepted the job of being her parent, one of the responsibilities was to protect her from harm and to teach her how to do that herself after she is on her own. I didn’t accept a job to be anyone else’s Mom – from the bully to the other parent. In the situation where my daughter might be the one exhibiting bullying behavior? That falls under the part where I am supposed to instill in her good values, kindness, and acceptable social behavior.
That another parent might not like me or would choose to end a friendship over it with me? Doesn’t absolve me of my responsibility to my daughter. It would be sad, but I already made my choice from the minute she was conceived. If it comes down to being a good parent versus having a friend? It’s a no-brainer for me.
As for the specific situation you wrote above? I would’ve reacted similarly. I also would’ve had a long discussion a few hours later with my kiddo at bedtime about it. (when she likes to work stuff out in her head before falling asleep.
You can’t parent someone else’s child – but that doesn’t mean you aren’t responsible for protecting yours and teaching them how to deal with people like that.
Amber Johnson
Well played, Lucretia. You’re right–you can’t parent someone else’s child. And in the end it does come down to being a good parent versus having a friend. However, it’s sad so many friendships are lost because of disagreements over raising children.
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Grandma
As Bode’s Grandma I hope it’s OK if I weigh in on this topic. I think you absolutely did the right thing by letting the bully know he was out of line by tormenting your son. That lets him know where the boundaries are, at least for you, but you represent society. That also tells Bode that he dosen’t have to tolerate that behavior from anyone and hopefully he will as he grows be able to send that message himself. You are the role model and advocate for him now. No doubt other kids were watching and they will know that that behavior will not be tolerated by Bode’s mom or hopefully Bode. And if Bode had been the aggressor, I know you would have been just as concerned with stopping that behavior and having him apologize to the victim. I think the mom should have insisted that the bully apologize to Bode, but we can’t change other people’s behavior and hopefully he got it when he got home.
Lori Lavender Luz
It’s such a big and complex issue. Your main obligation is to your kid, whether s/he is on the giving or receiving end of bullying. You need to show how to resolve problems in a mature way. That’s just plain hard in a moment of heat.
The kid also needs to know you have his/her back.
That said, most of the time in such situations I, too, act on instinct when mine is the one being bullied.
I have a child from whom I can not force an apology. But in private, away from the incident, we deal with the situation. It may look like mishandling, but it’s the best we can do.
Mean people feel small and powerless. That’s no excuse, for bullying, of course.
Natalie
Amber- When other moms don’t do anything to help the situation, I just remind myself that unfortunately too often, there are many parents who a) think their children are never in the wrong. Or b) perhaps the defenses go up before she can step back and really accept that her child actually hurt another child or even c) she simply doesn’t care at all or even encourages bullying (YES, I’ve seen this happen on the streets of my old neighborhood in Philadelphia. Mom’s & Dad’s alike cheering on a fist fight between two young daughters. Makes me sick. Those kids are doomed)
And I haven’t had to deal with this yet, but if I ever come across a mother who just lets it go, I would tell my child to choose other kids to play with. I’ve told her many times before, adults don’t waste their time hanging out with people who are abusive or nasty to them so why should kids? Aren’t we teaching them to be well balanced adults someday? the world has hateful people in it and I think teaching our kids to have a spine and choose their company wisely gives them a great advantage. And in the future when my daughter starts to date, that will pertain to relationships as well.
kia
I am so sorry Bode was “abused” like that. Especially in a sport like soccer there should be no room for thuggery and if the parent refused to issue an apology a conversation should have been had with their coach and or ref regarding that child’s behavior. He will do that again to someone else. Especially at that age there is no room for that behavior in team sports.
My son is only an infant. The only one that beats him up is himself as he discovers his hands and how they can pull his own hair. I have had reactions to nieces and nephews being bullied and I admit I sometimes fly off the handle. I tell myself I’ll be cool in a world of hypotheticals but will get in another kids face and talk to their parents about what their kids do.
My biggies are one time my niece named after me ended up with a sprained knee because some classmates were bullying her for not being Caucasian at her daycare. I was the aunt visiting in town but met one of the parents one day at the grocery store and asked her to tea to get to know someone of color if that is what was lacking in their household. Another time my husband and I took his nephew to the zoo and a girl in on the slides called him “dumbnuts” and made him cry. I think she was flirting but I got in her face and asked how making him cry made her feel since she really did like him. After I wish I would not have run over to my nephew to see what happened, that kind of scared the little girl unnecessarily because she was still close to him.
Jodi
You were absolutely correct to step in. Physical abuse is never acceptable.
We have had an ongoing problem with a boy that my daughter knows for the last couple of years. It came to a head last year when they were in second grade and he threatened to stab her. I went to the teacher, the principal of the school and finally the school district to get some kind of meaningful resolution. At no time did his parents (whom we see every day when we drop the kids off) attempt to talk to us about the matter. This leads me to believe he will never be responsible for his actions.
While I try to get my daughter to resolve minor issues herself, I would never allow any sort of physical confrontation to be overlooked.
ABCmom
Yes, handling the issue of the bullying of school-age children is complicated but can be addressed. For example, During sports practice, take 10 minutes to talk about bad behaviors so that the children know what a bullying act looks like; physical and emotional abuse as well as shunning. At sports functions, have aware parents positioned so they are able to see what is taking place on the field and they can quickly intervene in a bullying situation. Let children know that there will be observing parents so that they feel protected and supported if a bullying event takes place. Be clear with the offending child and his/her parents that a bullying act was taking place (do not let the child deny the act or say the victim was at fault). Finally, provide support for the victims and let them know that they were not at fault.
By late high school years, bullies lose the audience they were enjoyed at the expense of other children. After school bullies are 70% more likely to have committed a felony by age 21 and later have fewer employment and relationship successes and are more likely to have drug problems. They tend to come from chaotic homes where rules are not consistently applied or, of course, from homes where the child is bullied. By the way, in your neighborhood, how friendly do you want to be with parents who tolerate their children being bullies?
Society as a whole benefits when bullying is addressed.
Nicole C
My son is only 11 months, but I had this problem with my little brother when he was 4 (we’re 8 years apart) and I took him over to the kid’s house and told him if he wanted to fight my little brother it was gonna be a fair fight. So I let them go at it and my little brother beat the crap out of him… The kid never bothered him again. I realise I was only 12, but if the other kid’s parents aren’t going to do anything, someone has to stick up for your son!
Nicole C
BTW – I also told my brother that fighting isn’t the way to solve problems, but he cannot simply sit by and let 3 kids beat up on him if no one will help him. (Just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn’t advocating violence). =D
Amber Johnson
Wow, all insightful feedback everyone. Please keep them coming!
Mama Bird
Oh, Amber! I’m so sorry that happened to Bode. I don’t think any of us are prepared for the first time that happens, on either end. I would have done exactly as you did, there would be no stopping me. And, I wouldn’t regret it. You didn’t touch the other child, you simply reprimanded him which is what he needed in that moment. Had this happened at school, the playground teacher would’ve have done the same thing as well. When you’re the only adult ‘present’ during the event, I believe you have every right to lay down the law.
As for getting an apology out of the other child, like Lori, I’m also unable to force Reagan to apologize when she should. So, I don’t think we can always expect that from young children. But, it does sound like the mother handled things appropriately once she knew what was going on, and hopefully the boy was given his consequences.
Michael Voisinet
That red haired boy had absolutely positively NO RIGHT AT ALL in brutally assaulting during the soccer game. That was all well and good that the boys mother tried to make her son apologize to Bode for for the pain and anguish that he had inflicted upon him. And low and behold her son had refused to apologize to Bode for this encounter that had literally transpired between them. And when the red haired boy refused to apologized his mom had inadventantly removed him from the soccer field. What the boys mom should have done in this particular case is to make her son remain on the field until he had apologized to bode. The boys mom should have stipulated right then there that you are not leaving this field until you readily apologize to this boy. And she should have insisted that her boy readily apologize to this boy even if he had to stand there all day until he starts to apologize. Back in the day if you as much disrespected another child you would get a good sound spanking by your parents within the confines of that public establishment. And you would get spanked in front of others who were also frequenting that particular domain. And your parents most certainly did not care who saw them administer that particular spanking within that public sector. Today if you as much as administer corporal punishment to child the police could arrest you for child abuse. And CPS could end up taking your child away from you instantaneously. The federal government has absolutely positively no business at all in dictating to us as to how we should raise our own children. Those are our children and we have every single right to raise them as we see fit. If this red haired boys mother would have instilled firm discipline on this boy then none of this would have transpired in the first place. Today these kids don’t have any respect for parents. They don’t have any respect for for teachers. They don’t have any respect for police officers and those in proper authority. They don’t have any respect for their peers. They don’t have any respect at all for the rights and privileges of others. They don’t have any respect for other peoples personal property. They don’t even have any kind of respect for themselves. Whatever happened to please and thank you? Whatever happened to yes sir and yes ma’am? Whatever happened to excuse me? Whatever happened to I am sorry? Whatever happened to respect for parents? Whatever happened to respect for teachers? Whatever happened to respect for police officers and those in property authority? Whatever happened to respect for their peers? Whatever happened to respect for the rights and privileges of others? Whatever happened to respect for other peoples personal property? Whatever happened to respect for themselves? The morals in this country have completely declined by at least 100%. Today a vast majority of these children come from a home where both the mother and father are both working. Or they come from a one parent family where either the mother or father are both working. The vast majority of the time these young hoodlums are out meandering the streets and running completely afoul of the law. And when that child is being detained at the police station that parent makes this lame excuse to police stating that their Johnny is a good boy and that he can’t do no wrong. If their Johnny is such a good boy then why oh why is he being detained at the police station in the first place? Inquring minds want to know. As a parent it is both your duty and your obligation to instill firm discipline to your child. You must administer firm discipline to your child at all times. You must be consistent each and every time. You must put your foot down at all times. Don’t let your child con or cajole you. Don’t let them control or manipulate you. Don’t let them compromise with you or negotiate with you. You must keep your guard up at all times. As soon as you let your guard down that is when that child becomes the most incorrigible. You should inform your child that you are the boss of this household and that what you say goes at all times. They are not to leave the household without your expressed permission or consent. You should know who your child’s friends are and when they are going to be home. You should set a curfew for your child. And they must abide by that particular curfew at all times. They should carry a cell phone with them at all times. You should have them program your number into their cell phone and they should call you if they are going to be late or exceed their allotted curfew time. They should program 911 into their cell phones in case of a dire emergency or if they are approached by any suspicious persons. If they exceed their allotted curfew time and don’t contact you they should face the dire consequence of their actions. As long as that child totally residents within the confines of your household they must abide by your rules and regulations at all times. The only time that they don’t have to abide by your rules and regulations is when they turn 18 and are living on their own. After that any problems that they readily encounter are solely their responsibility. They must assume full responsibility for their actions at all times. You must always instill firm discipline in your child each and every time. Spare the rod and spoil the child!! Proverbs 22:6:Give a lad a training suitable to his character and,even when old,he will not go back on it. This bully needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law possible.
Mary
I am not a parent; however, I am a “big sister” who – decades ago, when a bully was tormenting my “baby brother” (in grade school at the time – 5 years younger than I) – I grabbed the kid, turned him over my knee and spanked him. I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with how the author handled the problem – after all, somebody was pummeling her child – getting in that brat’s face was absolutely acceptable! Interesting that the mother of the other boy believed the author immediately – and tried to get her son to do the right thing.
Alison
I think stepping in to protect your son (or anyone else for that matter) is right on. A person never has the right to physically harm another; however, that does not mean that the one being harmed, is completely free of fault. In Bode’s case it appears that this kid was just a big bully, but I’ve also witnessed many instances of a smarter or wittier child taunting a bigger individual with less control over himself and it results in hitting, kicking, etc. For this reason, I also see that it is not always a who is “right or wrong” situation, but a learning situation. What happened? Was that an appropriate response? What could have been better? I know that some people believe that discussing these things with kids is over their heads, but I don’t believe it, as my son is only 3 and I am amazed at his ability to comprehend cause and effect. Furthermore, as many people have already noted, modeling an appropriate response or behavior is how kids learn, so absolutely step in and rectify the situation to the best of your ability. Both children will likely learn from the experience.
Julie @ The Mom Slant
Here’s that link I was talking about.
http://www.themomslant.com/2010/06/young-enough-to-be-in-the-baby-pool-young-enough-to-require-supervision/
Pingback: What if YOUR Child is the Bully? | Mom In Management
Lauren Ross
I work for the Office of Safe and Drug Free Schools in Denver Public Schools. Our office does a tremendous amount of work to help schools implement bully-prevention practices, as well as educating parents about their role in preventing and intervening appropriately when bullying occurs. Here is some helpful information available from the DPS website:
http://parentguide.dpsk12.org/parent_power/bullying.html
Daria
Amber was gracious enough to come read my article about my first phone call from the Principal’s office and asked that I link it to this one in the comments, so here it is.
http://www.mominmanagement.com/1117/what-if-your-child-is-the-bully/
Basically, this post is from the slant of what if it’s YOUR kid that’s the bully? Not the victim…
He’s in 1st grade, so one incident probably isn’t an indicator of corrupt values, but still, that Mommy guilt hits and…well, with all the current focus on what to do if your kid is bullied – I really wanted to share the other side too. What to do if your kid is the bully?
BlessySmith
Bullying is just part of growing up and a way for young people to learn to stick up for themselves. But bullying can make young people feel lonely, unhappy and frightened. It makes them feel unsafe and think there must be something wrong with them. They lose confidence and may not want to go to school anymore. It may make them sick. As a parent, it’s very painful if our loving kids are being bullied. It’s our big responsibility to take good care of our kids and find best ways for them not to be bullied. I spend time with my kids telling them why there are bully kids for them to understand what’s wrong with the behavior and what they can do if they are being bullied. I want to protect them if bullying is getting harmful and what to do during emergency situations. Actually, I provided my kids a cellphone for me to easily monitor them. One of my friends recommended this kind of protection service. It really lessens my worries even if I’m not at their side. I really assure that your kids will be safe at all times. I want to share this site: http://safekidzone.com/. And I believe that this can also be a big help for you and your kids.
Tom the Parenting Guy
Parenting can be the toughest job you\\\’ll ever have. Kids present new challenges continuously because they keep growing and changing, and the issues grow and change with them.
As parents our most important job is to make sure our kids feel loved and valuable for who they are (not what they do). It\\\’s my biggest struggle, and my biggest joy all at once!